Wages Discussion
doreenmartel
1571 posts - United States - Joined Mar 18 2008Over the past several months there have been a number of posts regarding wages on projects posted here on oDesk. A number of very healthy discussions have cropped up and some led off to suggestions and recommendations and since people do seem to be interested in talking about this more, I thought perhaps that a new post with some of the points that have been brought up might be helpful to us (and perhaps to oDesk) in seeing where we are on these points.
Here are some suggestions:
A) Setting a minimum wage
B) Seeing 'classifications' of providers (i.e. beginner, intermediate, advanced) and basing 'minimum pay rates' based on that
C) Leaving things as they are and letting providers decide their own rates
So in the interest of getting some discussion going why don't we try this:
Pick your point (a) (b) or (c) and tell why you think this is a viable solution.
If you opt to debate someones point let's try to keep it to a dull roar - long posts get hard to follow. Make sure you're quoting (correctly) the person you're debating so we can all follow it!
Let's keep things civil. We're not all going to agree on the solution! But, perhaps we can open up some healthy debate. Consider putting in your first post how long you've been working with oDesk, how many of your assignments are 'short term' (i.e. under one month) and how many are 'long term'.
Another question that perhaps we can all answer: do you charge 'short term' clients more than 'long term clients'.
Have some fun with this and let's see what comes out of it!
Doreen
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doreenmartel
I would like to stay at "C) Leaving things as they are and letting providers decide their own rates"
Reasons: I believe setting a minimum wage will discourage higher pay rates from being viable as buyers will hire people at the minimum whenever possible.
mshuttleworth 109 posts - Greece - Joined Mar 05 2008
Good idea, Doreen!
Been here for four months, I now have 3 long term assignments and one short.
My answer is A) Setting a minimum wage.
Reasons: I don't think that people should be expected to work for 50 cents per and I don't believe that providers would all pay minimum wage just because they can.
Final point - I charge the same, long or short term, but find that long term clients, if you do a good job, increase their rates to keep you!
daverobinson 227 posts - Canada - Joined Sep 12 2007
I'm opposed to the minimum wage too: As I said earlier it's a step toward a commodity market which I utterly oppose.
The tiered provider or job idea sounds good at first, but I have reservations about that one too. Part of it is that I don't see a way to implement it without a minimimum wage. The other problem I have is that it can support filtering providers by anything other than competence.
People can use a tier structure to limit people from specific countries to lower rate jobs, and that's something I don't want to see. A provider's value should only be dependent on their skills and feedback, not their location or worse yet their race.
I also believe that any form of limits to the market will benefit the lower end of the provider spectrum at the expense of the upper end. Sure a $5.00/hr minimum wage is great for someone who used to make $1.50/hr, but expecting them to work for $5.00/hr is going to drive away anyone who is making $20.00/hr.
That's not good for providers or for oDesk. Remember, oDesk has a vested interest in keeping rates as high as possible because they make a percentage. They want to keep the people making more money because they're the ones who really pay the bills.
As it is now, if you work hard and are really good in your field you can make a lot more than $5.00/hr.
oDesk isn't and shouldn't become a welfare state. Give people the opportunity to excel and let the market reward those who do.
shamon 3 posts
I am new to oDesk and agree there shouldn't be a minimum wage as well. I would like to reply to daverobinson's comment, "People can use a tier structure to limit people from specific countries to lower rate jobs, and that's something I don't want to see. A provider's value should only be dependent on their skills and feedback, not their location or worse yet their race." While I agree people should not be chosen for a job or rejected because of their location and for sure not their race...that is reality on oDesk. People in the US are not use to working for $1 and $2 an hour like other countries and therefore overbid themselves. In the US, the cost of operating a computer for an hour (including electricity, hi-speed internet, and phone, if needed) all exceed the rates other providers are being hired for.
So, whether we like it or not...oDesk already has pay classifications, in my opinion. I would be curious to see the data based on researching the number of US/Canadian based buyers outsourcing to other countries for a significant amount lower than the Federal Minimum Wage in the US vs those same buyers staying within the US. I have emphasized significantly lower because I am not concerned with those hired for a buck or two below minimum wage, as I would expect that for work-at-home jobs. Hmmm....
daverobinson 227 posts - Canada - Joined Sep 12 2007
My own take on the matter of higher provider costs is simple: it's not the buyer's problem. The provider's costs are their own responsibility and if one's own cost of living won't let you take jobs at a specific wage then don't apply.
If a buyer can get the same quality work for less money they should take it. Providers in more expensive countries just need to provide some sort of value-add to make their higher rates worth it to the buyer.
Remember, it's not the price that matters, it's the value
rpamulak 2 posts - Philippines - Joined Feb 26 2009
I agree to you.... It should have a range per particular type of job. I've seen in some online job sites like this they are setting up a range of wage for a particular project. So its a fair one than bidding lower rates just to win the job. I'm working here since Feb,09 and I never ever tried to bid for a rate lower than 1$.
beginswithd 1 post - Canada - Joined Jun 04 2009
I'm not sure if this is specifically where I should be writing, but it seemed like a good place to start.
First I want to address the rates. I know there has been a lot of discussion around the rates that providers as well as clients are offering and all seems well discussed, however I feel it needs to go further than this.
A rate shows the client how serious you are about doing business. If your rate is too high the client won't look at you, if it is too low one might start asking immediate questions about quality. I feel it has to be fair. $2 an hour is not fair.
By having providers low ball themselves they are doing a dis-service to themselves, the client and us (their proffessional peers). I am a graphic designer out of Canada, and I fight with clients daily to insure that they know and respect my trade as something that not only holds value but is essential in the market place. How can we possibly make that arguement when there are providers on here making a mockery of the craft that I hold to very high esteem.
By setting, as a common practice, your rates extremely low it gives clients a false sense that "anyone can do this", or "it's not an important part of business". We as creative proffessionals have an obligation to further our art and to educate those around us about the importance of a well thought out brand strategy, a clear peice of communication, a proffessionaly delivered product that enhances user experience. A provider charging $2 an hour just cannot possibly keep the standards where they need to be.
At first glance I thought this site was going to be a great tool, it turns out that it is just propelling the stigma that many clients hold towards the creative business arts. It's a shame.
People might respond with "just go else where, let us work". That's the problem, the more people out there that are willing to except any price for quality work the harder it becomes to gain respect in an otherwise disrespect craft. And the creative arts are a craft. It takes process, method and clear to-the-point thinking to deliver something of quality. I will never do anything below $40 an hour, it just isn't worth my time or effort, and it's not good for the business.
jshortt 16 posts - United States - Joined May 31 2009
Hello beginswithd!
I enjoyed your post. I agree that you should set your rate and stick with it especially in your line of work. However, there are other professions that can afford to drop below the "desired rate" for a project. I definitely don't agree with providers doing a job for $2/hour! There should be some type of minimum requirement.
ashleyellis 5 posts - United States - Joined Jun 24 2009
Yes, there needs to be something done regarding wages. I am new to oDesk and I feel that being an American on this site is difficult because you have to compete with other people that charge $1/hour. There is no way an American that needs more will get picked over someone who is basically working for free. I have been turned down for jobs, not because I don't have the skills but because I require a higher wage. I refuse to work for less than $5/hour because that is below minimum wage in the USA. It upsets me that American companies on oDesk turn down their own nationals to higher cheap labor. I feel like it will be very hard to get a decent paid job.
mshull 14 posts - United States - Joined May 23 2009
It's important to note that no one is being exploited on oDesk - buyers and providers have total freedom to charge and pay whatever they think is fair.
In a free market, these things tend to stabilize on their own over time. For example, if Bob's Code Widget Factory hires a C++ programmer for $3 an hour, Bob is likely going to get $3 an hour (i.e. buggy) code. This will cost Bob in the long run, either when he has to pay his cheap coder for 10 times the number of hours he was expecting or has to start from scratch with a coder who can provide him with $30 an hour code. (Hopefully Bob has good advisers who can point out Bob likely pays more than $3 an hour for beer at the bar after work, but that's a hypothetical story for another day.) Assuming Bob is a reasonably intelligent fella, he's going to influence the market in his own little way, by recognizing the true market value of a guy who can write decent code. This will in turn allow any provider who can write decent C++ code to charge more for their work, which is good for everyone. oDesk, (heck, the global/virtual workforce as a whole) is a new concept and a new model. It's going to take time for prices to adjust and normalize.
With the current model, we providers have more power than we do in almost any other work environment. We can bid jobs based on our professional opinion of what they cost, we can ignore buyers who are clearly trying to get something for nothing and we can report buyers who behave unethically. While the results of those actions will not be immediately apparent, over time we can influence both how we're paid and how professionally we're treated in significant ways. Honestly, it's more power than I ever had in an office job.
Like Spiderman's poor uncle said, however; "with great power comes great responsibility." If we're not getting jobs or interviews, it's our responsibility to look at what WE can do to improve our chances before we blame anything extrinsic. We have to prove we're worthy of the rate we're charging by doing the legwork to put together a great profile and effective cover letters. oDesk is providing us with a meeting place, it's up to us to convince buyers of how much what we do is worth.
For as long as there have been people trying to sell things to other people, there have been folks who want to get ahead by cheating. At oDesk, those cheaters are a lot easier to spot. Changing the rules won't get rid of the cheaters, it will just make them more creative.
~michelle,long-winded
pkalimuthu 474 posts - India - Joined Mar 07 2008
I wonder if anyone could ever argue with your points on this topic.
debifields 1 post - United States - Joined Jun 23 2009
I see no reason at all why US minimum wage standards shouldn't be the bare minimum for paying on all projects.
I used to work for a huge virtual call center taking calls for hotel reservations. The minimum hourly rate was in excess of $7.10 per hour....UNTIL....
this corporation found out about off-shoring and did a "test" market with a call center in a 3rd world country where people were willing to work for only $1-$2 per hour. Within 9 months, my job was completely gone, through the miracle of modern technology.
I realize that companies have budgets, etc., but by sending the work overseas it hurts the US economy in so many ways.
Minimums would ensure quality work at quality prices. If the overseas workers get the same minimum wage as we do here, then they are decidely better off than we are, but it certainly evens the playing field for EVERYONE to have a shot at getting decent projects at decent rates of pay.
How can I compete for a job that would normally would go for 7-10$ per hour in the US, when my counterpart in the Phillipines tells someone they will do the same thing for less than half of what is a livable wage?
I don't live in the Phillipines and have the luxury of taking low-paying jobs because my rent and bills are much higher than if I lived elsewhere.
If I was working for a US company here in a Brick and Mortar building, employers would be legally bound to pay me at least minimum wage. Why should freelancers have to whore themselves out in this way? It's degrading and brings down the standard of living for everyone.
And just for the record....American companies who offshore should NOT get all the tax breaks they get when they add to the unemployment rate here at home.
clhend 2 posts - United States - Joined Jun 30 2009
Sorry you lost your job to outsourcing.
Here's my response to that: American companies that outsource to a country where English is a second or thrid language for their customer service will find they have very unhappy customers in the US.
Eventually they will begin to lose customers because when they have a problem and call CS for assistance, they want to be able to understand the person that's supposedly assisting them. Sometimes that is nearly impossible.
The same thing will happen here. As companies get tired of substandard work, they'll begin to realize that quality is cheaper in the long run and begin to pay more at the outset for a work product they can understand.
I got my first content writing job doing rewrites of articles that had been written by someone for whom English was not their first language. The grammar was terrible, the spelling was passable, but the sentence structure and wording were definitely identifiable as not being US-based English.
rhaden 222 posts - United States - Joined Aug 27 2008
I don't favor a minimum wage, and my reasons have been expressed by other commenters, but I think that providers should quit applying for low-rate jobs and then complaining. Just don't apply for them. The people wanting to pay 50 cents an hour aren't beneficial for oDesk or for us, so why encourage them? As long as people are willing to work for nothing, there'll be buyers here wanting to pay them nothing.
clhend 2 posts - United States - Joined Jun 30 2009
Setting a minimum might help, however as long as you have providers who are willing to work for peanuts the wages will never improve.
I'm new, and I've been shocked at how low the prices are...".005 cents per word" (or $2.50 for 500 word article)! I work a couple of other places where I get anywhere from $15 to $25 per 500 word article. Why would I give away my work?
It takes at least an hour to properly research and write a quality article...$2.50 an hour is less than minimum wage.
I probably won't be doing a lot of work thru oDesk just because of this one factor. People want native-English-speaking writers from the US, yet want to pay them the same wages they would pay an English-as-second-language writer located in a country where $2.50 a day is an excellent wage.
Just remember the old adage: "You get what you pay for" and that can be especially true in these situations.
msayno 111 posts - Philippines - Joined Feb 05 2008
and that means... freedom to choose our wages and freedom to say NO to slave labor. I'm from a third world country - and given a choice between $0.50/hour and sleeping all day, I'd rather get some good, quality sleep - or better yet, spend my time on meaningful, volunteer work in my community.
I guess.... this financial crisis have made the good, the worst, and the ugly out of people - no exceptions. It is a fight for survival nowadays and we can only hope for better things to come.