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Shockingly low wages for skilled labor

I am new to oDesk. For the past few days, I have been browsing the jobs posted on the site and am shocked at the low pay rates that Buyers offer for highly skilled labor. While they demand extensive experience and perfect performance, and the current Federal Minimum Wage is $6.55 per hour, some offer as little as $2 per hour. How can Buyers expect quality work for such low pay? And how can oDesk condone this?

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Sigh

celesteheiter wrote:

I am new to oDesk. For the past few days, I have been browsing the jobs posted on the site and am shocked at the low pay rates that Buyers offer for highly skilled labor. While they demand extensive experience and perfect performance, and the current Federal Minimum Wage is $6.55 per hour, some offer as little as $2 per hour. How can Buyers expect quality work for such low pay? And how can oDesk condone this?

If the rate is too low, then don't apply for the job.

The average rate for hourly work on oDesk has fluctuated between $12.00/hr and $15.00/hr for the last year.  While not astronomical, that's much higher than $2.00/hr.

Most of the buyers who ask for superb work at very low pay don't get it.  Data entry jobs are low paying, but that's because almost anyone can do it and the ratio of providers to jobs in the field is very high.  Other categories pay more.

Having said that, a minimum wage is really irrelevant here, because no one is working for a wage.  What you're really talking about are price controls, because oDesk providers are selling services, not working for a wage, and part of the free market is allowing providers to set their rates.

My first job on oDesk paid $10.00/hr.  That was with no reputation, feedback, or history on oDesk.  Since then my rates have gone nowhere but up.

Some jobs pay very little, others pay a lot.  Pick the ones you want to apply for.

oDesk supports providers charging as much as the market will bear.  That amount is not the same for all providers.

PS: Dave wrote an

daverobinson wrote:

Some jobs pay very little, others pay a lot.  Pick the ones you want to apply for.

oDesk supports providers charging as much as the market will bear.  That amount is not the same for all providers.

PS: Dave wrote an article on this very topic just last week.

Having said that, a minimum wage is really irrelevant here

How in the world can you say that. What do you think a wage is? It is "A wage is a compensation, usually financial, received by a worker in exchange for their labor." What do you think my experience and talent is price control? I don't think so. This sight isn't the only sight out there, so please with the no reputation or history on oDesk. 

Support or should I say control should be set at least minimum wage for the US.  Yes, even for the Data Entry people. Everyone deserves to be paid fairly and not taken advatage of, because of some client that should get a relative to do it for free.

 This also brings into account the quality issue, good, fast or cheap. Pick 2, because that is all you are going to get and that is if you are lucky.

 Yes, I can refuse to take the job, point taken, but not even a beginner or college student deserve to be taken advantage of!!

We have to hold clients accountable for resonable pay and that goes along with this websight. 

yep

I got my first job at oDesk for just the same rate I get now, which is a good deal more than $2.00 an hour. I'm not flexible on my rate, while many people are, and for good reasons. It's a marketplace, so we all get to choose what to sell, what to buy, and for how much. 

I agree with you that it's unseemly for buyers to ask for perfection (often in an obnoxious tone) and then offer miniscule wages, but nobody has to apply for those jobs. I notice their companies and make sure never to buy anything from them, either.

oDesk has no responsibility in the matter of fees.  They're just opening up their nice marketplace to us. We're the ones who put out our wares and strike the bargains.

 

Ditto to Dave

There's no reason to work for $2/hr if you don't want to, and even your first job can be at a decent rate.

Just like Dave, I got my first job (which I'm still doing, btw) at a decent rate with no odesk hours or feedback. It's still less than I was making at my "day job", but it's enough to get by until something bigger comes along.

That being said, though, you have to be able to sell yourself to the buyer. You have to show them that hiring you is worth the extra money.  Were I buying this type of service, just by taking a look at your profile, there's nothing for me to base my decision on except your accolades. Personally, education and a resume doesn't do squat for me - I prefer to see hard evidence in a portfolio.

You might want to put some writing samples in your portfolio and take some of the English/writing tests here (even though some of them are laughable).

Again, this is my personal opinion, but I can't imagine I'm the only one that feels this way.

You might want to search the forums for other threads on rates. There are some interesting points made by both sides, including oDesk's take on the matter.

- Danalyn 

Chances are, if someone is

Chances are, if someone is willing to do something for $2 per hour, the job isn't as skilled as you think.  Sure, it would pay more in the US, Europe, or many other places, but I doubt you're really talking about real skilled labor.
__________________________

Abel Mohler
How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

Overpaying for nothing

celesteheiter wrote:

... and the current Federal Minimum Wage is $6.55 per hour

 There are just 5% of the world population who works under "Federal Minimum Wage". There are some more countries in the world, not just USA.

celesteheiter wrote:

, some offer as little as $2 per hour. How can Buyers expect quality work for such low pay?

How can Buyers expect quality work by overpaying? Especially by overpaying for nothing? $2/hr isn't OK for penthouse(Drunk owners. Compete, if you can.

“There is no job that is America's god-given
anymore” (c) Carly Fiorina, the HP chairman.

Minimum Wages

Oddly enough, the US has a very low minimum wage for a developed country.  It's certainly lower than most if not all Canadian provinces.

However there's a big difference between fair payment and overpayment.   One problem people have when it comes to valuing writing is that any educated adult can write.  However, that doesn't mean any educated adult can write at a professional level.

When you're talking $2/hr for writing you are talking about article mills and bottom-feeders, you're not talking about quality.  A good writer can easily command over ten times that amount - and have people coming back with more jobs.

The same result

daverobinson wrote:
When you're talking $2/hr for writing you are talking about article mills and bottom-feeders, you're not talking about quality.  A good writer can easily command over ten times that amount - and have people coming back with more jobs.

Who will pay "over ten times that amount" for the same result (articles, etc) ?

Or, may be, you can predict result by salary?

My last article writing job

My last article writing job was at $20/hr.

A person who pays me $20/hr isn't getting the same result as someone paying $2/hr.  The majority of $2/hr writers are producing crap - that's why they get paid $2/hr.

Writing well is a skill, and people who want that skill are willing to pay for it.  Anyone can string words together - and get $2/hr - not everyone can write well.

Common SPELL

"A person who pays me $20/hr isn't getting the same result as someone paying $2/hr"

 This is common SPELL from coders from expensive areas (Canada too). You can spell, but you can't prove.

And your buyer just overpay for nothing. May be he will be bankrupt soon.

Any case - high price doesn't mean high quality. Pay more - bankrupt faster.

 

really?

In the case of writers, I pretty much totally disagree.  You will generally get what you pay for when it comes to hiring a good writer, especially if you need content or other material for an English speaking audience.  You can't tell me you honestly believe that a writer from India whose primary language is Urdu, Hindi,  Marathi, etc, will be able to write as well whose primary language is English.  This doesn't mean someone from India or another part of the world would not be able to write well under certain circumstances, but very often what is needed is primary English language speakers, and those are usually going to be more expensive, as well as give better results.

This does not even consider the fact that it is useful to have someone in a similar time-zone, which will be able to communicate during the same hours as the buyer.  Much of any job, in any category, is communication, so I would extend this to just about anything, not just writing.

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

Really.

amohler wrote:
You will generally get what you pay for

Overpay today, become bankrupt tomorrow.

amohler wrote:
when it comes to hiring a good writer, especially if you need content or other material for an English speaking audience.

I can rent proofreader(Drunk for another $2/hr.

amohler wrote:
You can't tell me you honestly believe that a writer
from India whose primary language is Urdu, Hindi, Marathi, etc,

And don't forget about China, VietNam, Thailand ...

amohler wrote:
will be able to write as well whose primary language is English.
This doesn't mean someone from India or another part of the world would not be able to write well
under certain circumstances, but very often what is needed is primary English language speakers,
and those are usually going to be more expensive, as well as give better results.

Just more expensive.
Say, Indian freelancer can be registered at oDesk as USA freelancer.
He is "primary English language speaker" now, right?
How you can recognize him?

This is official response to my request about one buyer:

"Though, it is also possible that the buyer is originally from one country but is doing business on another."

Change "buyer" by "freelancer" and get new "native speaker".

amohler wrote:

This does not even consider the fact that it is useful to have someone in a similar time-zone, which will be able to communicate during the same hours as the buyer.  
Much of any job, in any category, is communication, so I would extend this to just about anything, not just writing.

Please, don't write this to real freelancers. It's 2 AM in my area and this OK for me.
Also this OK for my client (his local time is 3 PM).

but..

You may be able to work out agreements with buyers that specialize in working with providers in much different time-zones, but I know from experience that most of my buyers can't deal with this.

 And as far as the writers are concerned, there isn't any way for you to convince me on this point.  I don't think you understand how many cultural differences are expressed in print, and how important it is for most readers to be able to connect to the written style of the material.  This may not be true for a manual about automobile parts, or a technical specification of some sort, but what about an American blog about shopping for weddings?  What about an American site that needs content about fashion accessories?  Many of the people that operate these sites are not anywhere near going broke, and NEED to pay someone who understands the culture and the language enough that they can address basic slang, and actually understand what it means.  If this was not a fact, people like daverobinson  would not be able to make a living, and I predict his earnings will only go up.  He should be able to make more like $30-$40 per hour, and he will deserve it.

Sure, our cost of living might be greater, but our clients are able to pay more also.  In my experience there is absolutely no reason that Western providers cannot compete.  They can, and do, on a regular basis.  It is because of this that our little global marketplace here on Odesk is able to thrive.
__________________________

Abel Mohler
How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

I agree with Abel. The

I agree with Abel. The cultural differences and idioms are some things that people miss. Even between native English speaking countries, there are people who don't understand phrases from other countries. Some examples would be:

"It's in the ballpark."

"Sell the sizzle, not the steak."

"She was barking up the wrong tree."

...and there are thousands more.

Someone might be able to look up these but it would be very difficult for a person growing up in another country to use these phrases correctly while writing.

I also would like to point out that paying someone more to get better quality work is only a generality. I have worked at places where some junior developers produced better quality work than senior developers with 5+ years experience who were no doubt making more money.

good point

A few days ago I was chatting over IM with a provider that I work with regularly.  He resides in Pakistan, and communicates very well in English.  I asked him, "How is Odesk treating you?".  His response was "In regards to what?".  I apologized,  said that I forgot that American expressions don't always carry their meaning internationally, then rephrased my question.
__________________________

Abel Mohler
How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

And you can check how often

amohler wrote:
He should be able to make more like $30-$40 per hour, and he will deserve it.

And you can check how often: http://www.odesk.com/community/oconomy/rate_distributions_by_category

"Rate distribution - Writing jobs" graph. Less than 1% of all oDesk jobs.

doesn't matter

rhaden only charges one rate: $44 per hour, for writing, and she doesn't seem to be having trouble getting work.  To be fair, she does also do fixed price assignments, and has a business outside of Odesk, so doesn't have to lower her rate to keep a full docket.

As I've said before, knowing something about SEO helps writers make more.  Still think someone like Rebecca could be replaced with $2 per hour cheap labor?
__________________________

Abel Mohler
How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

2 pixels height

amohler wrote:

rhaden only charges one rate: $44 per hour, for writing, and she doesn't seem to be having trouble getting work. 
Yes, and all these $44-$45/hr raters get 2 pixels height on the "Rate distribution - Writing jobs" graph.

amohler wrote:
and has a business outside of Odesk,
Thank you for writing about this on _ODESK_ forum.

amohler wrote:
Still think someone like Rebecca could be replaced with $2 per hour cheap labor?
No, no, someone should prepare this huge and heavy volume of work: less than 1% of _all_ oDesk jobs.

The average rates reflects

The average rates reflects the average skill level, not only geographical location.  As most of us probably know, the average skill level is not that high.  This is why any dedicated professional such as yourself can earn a good living here.

Let's take the average coder in Russia, for example.  Probably only makes about $11-12 per hour, am I right?  But you are able to earn $25 per hour because your skills and experience give you the ability to deliver better product.  This isn't any different for writers.  When a writer rises in experience and skill, he or she creates his own market for higher paying clients.  The fact that only 1% of writers are earning over $30 per hour or so, only tells me that there aren't enough good writers!
__________________________

Abel Mohler
How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

1% of all jobs

Over 216,000 jobs have been posted on oDesk.  One percent of that is over 2,000 jobs.

The average job is 428 hours.

It may not be a lot of work, but there is writing work available at the higher rates.  Not as much as at the lower rates but there is work.  There's also a spike at $22/hr - on that same chart you posted.

Not all writing jobs require the same level of skill - those that require more skill pay better.

This should not be hard to understand.

You can't predict skills by salary

daverobinson wrote:
Not all writing jobs require the same level of skill - those that require more skill pay better.

You can't predict skills by salary. This should not be hard to understand too.

That's not entirely true.

That's not entirely true. While there will always be outliers and considerations for variations in wages from country to country, salary can be a fair predictor of skills. A savvy provider is aware of what his or her skills are worth and prices accordingly. A high rate that is not backed up by adequate skills will eventually either have to come down, or the provider will have to leave the market for not being able to compete. A high rate that IS backed up by skills will remain consistent and steady with little to no variation except in special circumstances. 

Those providers you see charging a higher rate consistently and over a long period of time can easily be said to have the skill to deserve that wage. 

While with especially low rates the issue becomes somewhat more murkey is it is impossible to tell if someone is just undervalued or lacking skill, it's very easy to tell when it comes to higher rates of pay. Those with the skills get the money.

Really savy provider

kellylang wrote:

That's not entirely true. While there will always be outliers and considerations for variations in wages from country to country, salary can be a fair predictor of skills. A savvy provider is aware of what his or her skills are worth and prices accordingly.

Really savy provider will register as USA provider. Oh, sorry, as "doing business in the USA provider". Another expensive country can be an option too. I already explain why this possible.

I think you're missing my point

You are right in saying that the skills of a given writer cannot be judged solely by their charge rate.

However, the amount of skill a buyer believes a job will require can be judged by their budget.  Difficult and important jobs are worth more than easy and simple jobs.

A provider with a history of high-paying writing jobs and good feedback has enough skill at writing to convince multiple buyers that they are worth that amount.  That's a skill.

Finally, most people with very low rates for writing have very poorly written profiles:  those with higher rates have profiles that are written in much better English.  It's a clear differentiation by skill level.

Profile can be copy-pasted

daverobinson wrote:
Finally, most people with very low rates for writing have very poorly written profiles:  those with higher rates have profiles that are written in much better English.  It's a clear differentiation by skill level.

Profile can be copy-pasted, rather than written. You can't have personal CIA to check each profile, even for $$$ article.

Isn't this why there is an

Isn't this why there is an interview process?

Sure it can be copy and pasted....

But right now you're just dragging in far-fetched examples to try and defend an indefensible position.

You keep saying that just because a writer charges more does not mean they have greater skills, and you are right as far as that goes.  It does not require greater skills to charge more (getting those higher rates consistently might be different story).

But just because something isn't always true does not mean it's never true.  Even though it is possible to charge high rates without commensurate skills, that does not mean that no one who charges high rates has great skills.

Not always does not mean never.

Some writers have more skill than others.

Some jobs require more skill than others.

A writer with a steady history of working for high rates probably does have more skills than one with a steady history of working for low rates because the only way to get those jobs is to write better cover letters.  That means they have consistently demonstrated superior writing skills to the people who care most:  buyers.

Yes there are going to be some writers with lower rates who are better than some with with higher rates, but as a general rule a writer with higher charge rates will normally be better than one with lower charge rates. My one caveat is that this is limited to real charge rates, amounts they have worked for and actually been paid because a rate isn't real until someone pays it.

In average

daverobinson wrote:
Even though it is possible to charge high rates without commensurate skills, that does not mean that no one who charges high rates has great skills.

I already found some pixels on this graph: http://www.odesk.com/community/oconomy/rate_distributions_by_category

In average - this is overpaying for nothing. Even most supid USA content writer can't leave for $2/hr. In many other countries $2/hr is OK.

No

I've seen that graph before - I've used it too.  All it does is show how many jobs there are at any given charge rate.  What it does not show is the relative difficulty of jobs at different rates.  It doesn't show ANYTHING about the jobs except how many pay how much.

It's impossible to say whether someone is overcharging for their services when you don't know what services they are providing.

Some writing jobs are worth more than others:  writers with greater skill take the better paying jobs.

Not all writing jobs here are "content writing."

Since my name came up...

This has become a really interesting conversation, and I don't know quite where to reply -- it may be that this is the kind of discussion that works best if we're all together in a room and talking all on top of each other. So I'm going to jump in where my name came up.

It's pretty obvious even in the forums that there are widely varying levels of comfort with English and skill in writing, and that certainly  should be reflected in the pay scale. Higher quality is worth a higher price. Particularly in terms of SEO and SEM, both human and search engine visitors respond better to good, well-written content. My clients get measurable results.

Also, as Abel says, people like me who have clients outside of oDesk have other factors to consider. I don't want to discount compared with others in my area and distort the market. My rate at oDesk is my "agency" rate, and it's cheaper than my private rate, and I can explain what the differences are to private clients so they can choose to hire me through oDesk if they want a lower rate with a different level of service -- but I obviously can't work for rates that are absurdly low compared to my private rate. Nor would there be any advantage for me in doing so.

And here's what seems to me to be a significant point that hasn't really been discussed: more expensive writers clearly have a choice. That is, someone working for $2 an article, and certainly a native speaker working for that kind of rate, must not have other options. They may be very valuable in some context, but in the marketplace, they're not. I'm expensive by oDesk standards, and I have lots of work. A buyer has to see that I must be providing a good ROI, or that wouldn't be the case.

For fixed-price assignments, I charge my usual hourly rate and make a good estimate for how long the work will take me. Sometimes I'm cheaper than low-priced providers on fixed-price assignments, not because I discount, but because I know how long it takes me to do a task well, and it's often a shorter time than a less expensive provider with less experience. Nobody's going bankrupt by hiring someone like me.

I hope this doesn't sound tremendously arrogant. I'm not claiming that people who charge more are by definition more valuable. Plenty of people in my field charge way more than I do, and I don't necessarily think they do a better job than I do. They often have higher overhead, higher costs of living (I'm in the rural part of the U.S. and I work out of my home) or have been in the business longer than I have.

I'm working right now with four different excellent graphic artists, and they all have different rates. One owns a company, with the overhead involved in that, one is a fulltime IT guy who does graphics for creative fun, one lives in the Philippines, and the other is an art teacher picking up a little extra money. Their circumstances, not their skills, are different.

It's just the market: if you're doing a good job, and you have plenty of work, you can choose not to work for low rates. As a buyer, I would take that into account.

Jumping in

The opinions I express here are my own and not necessarily those of oDesk!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to defend David here.  You might think that 2 dollars is fair pay for an article.  I beg to differ.  Rewriting of an existing article might be qualified in the $2 range but original articles with GOOD content will cost you more.

For heavens sake I can go to Helium and publish an article and make more than $2 on it....up front and page hits combined, I can make substantially more on it.

In some cases perhaps you can't predict results by salary, but frankly, if you're paying $2 for a 500 word article - then the saying goes YOU do get what you're paying for.

Doreen

Private profile

Your profile is pivate, but I am sure: you are from expensive area too. 

This is salary survey: http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Country=India/Hourly_Rate

In average, "Software Engeneer" receive 300 Indian Rupee per hour, i.e. $6/hr

So, $2/hr is OK for content writing.

You can check other countries too. USA is just 5% of the world population. Compete, if you can.

"Content Writing"

TakeReal wrote:

Your profile is pivate, but I am sure: you are from expensive area too. 

This is salary survey: http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Country=India/Hourly_Rate

In average, "Software Engeneer" receive 300 Indian Rupee per hour, i.e. $6/hr

So, $2/hr is OK for content writing.

You can check other countries too. USA is just 5% of the world population. Compete, if you can.

The value of one's work has nothing to do with one's cost of living. 

Part of the problem I'm seeing is that it appears you're conflating "content writing" with all writing jobs.  If all a buyer wants is words strung together for articles to filll a linkbait site then sure, they should pay as little as they can get away with paying.

That's commodity writing, and commodities always sell on price.

That's not the only kind of writing job out there though.  Other writing jobs pay a lot more than $2/hr and those are the jobs I apply for.  It's not just throwing words together into basic sentences with a few keywords in the mix.

A job anyone can do generally commands low rates, but that doesn't describe all writing jobs.

A good writer will make much more than $2/hr because they won't be doing the article mill content work.

Since this conversation has

Since this conversation has gotten exciting already, may I suggest that there are quality issues among the buyers, too? People using article mills are not excellent companies, seeking to acquaint buyers with their top-quality products. Their attitude toward workers -- i.e., pay as little as possible while demanding as much as possible -- reflects their attitude toward their customers. I don't want to work for those companies, anyway. 

We have excellent firms as buyers here at oDesk, just as we have excellent providers. This is a good place to match them up.

Days of $2 had gone , now you will get $0.70 per hour

just check this job http://www.odesk.com/jobs/Assistant_~~cbfb6bb9e10ce4e0?tot=247&pos=1

the number of such jobs on oDesk are increasing a lot and it encourages other buyers to post such job descriptions .

 oDesk need to make some guidelines so that buyers can't put such rates in job description .

While I'm on the side

While I'm on the side against a minimum wage, from a business point of view I don't see why oDesk would even want to accept these types of buyers. From his 16 tasks, he has spent $178 which means oDesk has made a whopping $17.80 from having this buyer on their site. All he has to do is file one complaint to oDesk support and he becomes a liability, reducing profits. I can't see the benefit to oDesk to having buyers like this.

That buyer gets what is paid for

Which is not much.  See how lowly he or she rates the providers?  I can't imagine this account is being used to run a business that is all that productive.  You can't just think you are going to pay people 70 cents an hour and maintain any sort of long term.  That is not a living by any standard in the world.
__________________________

Abel Mohler
How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

__________________________

Abel Mohler
Sometimes known as "Wayfarer" | How I Became a Full Time Freelancer

This buyer does nothing for

This buyer does nothing for oDesk or providers; but eventually they will price or feedback themselves out of the market.

Even those providers they do hire will jump ship soon enough.

 

Actually, I think it's good

Actually, I think it's good to have those rates in the description, so we providers don't have to waste our time applying. I'd like to have those rates in the title of the job posting so we wouldn't have to waste our time reading the description.

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