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Cost is more than just cost of living.

Hey All,

I see alot of comments here about different locations and the cost of living, I understand and appreciate that.

What my concern is that @ $2.00 an hour you cannot be paying for the cost to do business.  General outgoings such as internet costs, power, rent but most of all in our industry SOFTWARE!

I find it hard to compete in a market such as this, when i am competeing against those that must be breaking the law by using pirate software. At $2.00 an hour I would be working 50 weeks a year to pay for my software updates.

I would like to start a movement for providers to have to validate their software as authentic on odesk.  I think this would get rid of the $2.00 bid.

Cheers All

Shaun W.

Vote Result

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Score: 4.5, Votes: 6
My $0.02

shaunwhite wrote:

I would like to start a movement for providers to have to validate their software as authentic on odesk.

Good idea and I wish you could start this movement at the earliest.

I would like to see this as

I would like to see this as well.Sooner the better

- Deepa Govind
Would you entirely make your profile private or allow visibility to buyers only ?
Discuss here , we need your inputs

What software are you

What software are you referring to?

For development I mainly use Eclipse (free and open-source), Open Office (free and open-source), FileZilla for FTP (free) and GIMP if I need image editing abilities (also free and open source).

Lets be real!

Hey I use notepad or crimson to cut my code but.........lets get real.

If you think GIMP is up to speed... Hey great initiative, both my kids use it but commercial I dont think.  Again open office fantastic but if you are communicating with true corporates how do you plan to present in an environment that they are comfortable with.  FileZilla  fine but what about sftp, shell etc.  What software are you using for testing??  What type of a dev box do you run??  do you have a whiteboard app or similar that you use to communicate with your clients??

I dont think that Eclipse, OO,Filezilla and gimp realy cut it..... hey but what ever floats your boat and I cant see anything wrong with the work you have done.  So all the best!

Cheers

 

I have to disagree on Eclipse

While Gimp may definitely not be on par with Photoshop, Eclipse is used in many,many businesses, including Universities and the US government. Every place I have worked as a java developer has used Eclipse. So while it may be free, it is also the best java IDE around. Tomcat also falls in to that category.

 

---retraction----

I tried to leave eclipse out of it, I have never used it so I will put that on the record as not being able to comment.

~~Lets not forget that we are talking about in general how much are software and hardware costs us.~~

Cheers

Yeah I agree GIMP doesn't

Yeah I agree GIMP doesn't compare to Photoshop if you are doing design but I don't do that. I just need something now and then to cut out images and get hex colour codes so it's more than enough for me. Haven't had the need yet for SFTP or shell or a whiteboard app. All my communication has been fine with email and Skype.

I run XAMPP on my machine to develop and test locally.

Being self-employed is just like running a business. It's important to keep your costs down while not sacrificing quality. If I had a real need to use software that cost money, then I would look into purchasing it.

need not be

@shaun

I dont know what area you work in, but software need not be the biggest cost for a provider.

Let me take my case. I use open source tools for Java. For JavaEE jobs the tools I use is JBoss Server(open source), Net Beans IDE(open source), JUnit (open source) etc. So, if you take my software costs apart from the OS which is windows, I dont have major costs involved. Now with .Net the only extra cost is VS which costs just $500, with patches and updates free. If you are paying too much in software costs, you should try to find out why, and try to cut down on the excess costs. This way you can be more competitive.

OK Lets do the math.

I respectfully rebut your comments and do so with your own example given.  I will put the figures in simple terms.

SOFTWARE
1. VS $150.00 pa.
2. Windows OS $150.00 pa.
3. Adobe CS $500.00 pa.
so far at your hourly rate you have jus worked 133 hours.

ISP
1. ADSL2+ $588.00 pa
add another 98 hours

HARDWARE
1. Network hardware $ 105 pa
2. Development Machine $250.00 pa
3. Desktop workstation. $330.00 pa
yet another 114 hours

So before I go into other business consumables such as phone, insurance, utilities or add other propriotory softwar applications that many clients require, you worked a total of 345 hours or 20% of you productive work time.

I have been very conservative with these figures, I myself update my hardware much more regularly than I have allowed for here I also actively use and maintain a windows server box(because clients seem to want it) another cost I didnt include. 

I could go on for ever...... but I wont, the point I am trying to make is; buyers on here expect a level of profesionalism yet due to the supply market (providers) killing themselves by working for nothing and creating a market that is non sustainable for all, they are starting to expect that profesionalism for nothing.

We can all clone a website and probably only deserve $5.00 an hour for doing so, but asking someone to develope a print application for $500.00 and getting 37 applicants applying thats absurd I have built an app almost exactly the same as was specified it took 416 hours of solid work, for a developer with 15 years of experience and access to Heidleberg developers to assist with machine intergration.  YOU CANT GET THAT FOR $500

enough said.

assumptions are wrong

I dont know what assumptions you have made regarding my source of income. But it seems to me that one of that assumption is that odesk is my only source of income, which is very wrong. oDesk or for that matter, all the freelance sites that I work combined on is not my primary or major source of income. My major source of income are my freelance projects outside the internet, my local clients. And from the local clients alone I earn approximately $1500 per month.So, you see, I can cover all of my software and hardware expenses in less that 2 months.

I am in oDesk because I want to expand my sources of income.

Now, why is my rate so less? Well u see I have been trying to get some assignments and have been actively bidding for the last 4 months. Initially my rate was set at $11. 2.5 months into bidding I did not even get a single interview. I dont mind not getting hired if I am not the right person, but I was not even getting an interview. Even after I tweaked my profiles, and cover letter(included details explanation of how I will implement the requirements). So, I checked out another suggestion from the members in the forum. To reduce the rate till I get sufficient work history. Once I reduced the rates, I started getting interviews.
So, you see, instead of blaming the providers, you must understand the buyers here wont hire newbies unless your rates are low.

That said this is never going to be my rates, because I actually lose money on my current rate. This is only till I get sufficient work history. I have set a time of 9 months. And if in 9 months, I am not able to command a satisfactory rate in oDesk, then it is a goodbye to oDesk from me.

Assumption not wrong, you agree the rate doesnt pay your outs.

eimax wrote:
So, you see, instead of blaming the providers, you must understand the buyers here wont hire newbies unless your rates are low

I dont know who told you to drop your rate but I have been on here for less than one week I have had two jobs both at my rate of $25.

As for the assumptions, I was not being derogitory towards you, I was simply saying at your rate you could not sustain yourself, a point you yourself have now confirmed.

If I have offended you I apologise, I simply want people to stop charging under the rates needed to sustain themselves, this doesnt just gain you work experience it creates a mindset with the buyers.

Regards

Shaun

I havnt taken your comments

I havnt taken your comments in a wrong way.

Its good that you have got work at your rates. But, I have stated my experience in odesk.

One reason for that could be that I dont work on websites and I am not a designer, so I cannot show a visual portfolio, since I work on custom built application for my clients. So, the buyers do not have a platform to evaluate my work unless they hire me.

This is not about software.

This is not about software. This is about "providers from too expensive areas can't compete".

If you can prove "All my software/hardware legal" - next step will be:
"Do you have good police clearance?"
"Do you pay rent for your flat punctually?"
"What about other debts?"

I dont understand your point....

Takereal,

I see that you charge $25 an hour so whats your point? 

This is about the profesionalism of my chosen profesion, if I had a brain tumor I wouldnt hunt around for some backyard guy to operate I would want the best surgeon with the best facilities in the land, I wouldnt ask how much or expect him to lower himself to the standard of the guy in his garage.

Most of the work we do is either a companies presentation to the world, or a productivity application that will become critical to a companies day to day operations.  Why is Odesk creating a mindset that its not only OK to search for the "cheapest" bidder when developing your business critical software (your brain surgeon) its the intelegent thing to do.

We owe it to our industry, our clients and ourselves to make sure that the standards we set in our chosen field is of the highest standard.  So yes bring on the police checks, make sure the provider can meet his financial requirements and make sure that the tools of his trade are not stolen.

rant ended.

My $0.01

Hi Shaun

Please note that is possible to make software development with low cost hardware and free or almost free software.

For example it is possible to use Linux or previous version Windows with free development tools like Eclipse, Visual Studio Express, etc.

Also it is possible to provide basic image processing with free software running on low cost hardware.

So my proposal for you is to focus on proving value, fair rates and people that (can) appreciate it.

Related questions:
What is good quality? How to prove it? How to estimate the value?
Is it possible on oDesk to provide better value and get fair rate? If yes how can be done?
How to outline the people that provide/buy low cost or good quality?

Is it possible to prove anything to people looking for top quality and offering rate bellow average (even) on oDesk?
Is it possible to prove anything to people looking for oDesk/Google clone for $100?
Is it possible to prove anything to someone with $1000 looking for slaves and thinking that every provider have to make him happy/satisfied?
How to be sure that buyer/provider is one of these people?

How to outline serious buyers/providers that wish to make work based on common sense and do not try to shirk, steal, lie, exploit slaves, etc?

Kamen

Exploitation is out!

I agree Kamen, we need to focus on providing quality and service to our clients, but this is something that needs to be done industry wide.  I have seen job postings with "9poenvpqiojfgpi" as the description and people posting bids???? 

I think this post started out as a person who works more in the real world than with virtual clients being very frustrated at the bids some people were placing and looking to the regulator (odesk in this case) to do something about what I thought would be the obvious cause.  Now I think the regulator has to get rid of these tools that just quote on everything at any price.  How can someone do a cost annalysis on a web app clone in 60seconds ?

Im still frustrated!

well

shaunwhite wrote:
we need to focus on providing quality and service to our clients, but this is something that needs to be done industry wide. 
It seems that you care too much about the worldwide market. Please note that there are different people and different ways of working. You can not tell everyone what to do. Internet and oDesk just provide ways to connect the people.

About this text

shaunwhite wrote:
Im still frustrated!
Please note that hard work is supposed to be frustrating

I think what can be done is try to achieve better grouping of the providers and buyers according to quality and price range. Such grouping will show whether there are providers/buyers that (can)appreciate quality and can afford/provide quality work

I think the job offers for high skilled providers with rate far bellow oDesk average are pure exploitation. I have seen many such job offers. This seems another topic so I'm considering whether to post separate thread about this. I'm wondering how to describe such cases in line with oDesk policies

I think I just dicovered the problem!

k123 wrote:
Please note that hard work is supposed to be frustrating

I feel and have always been taught that hard work is suppost to be rewarding!  If this is the way people feel then I am now clear as to why people underquote their skill levels, it has nothing to do with the cost of living, it is that they want to be frustrated (enjoy it even.....).

I myself would not work another day if the goal of my toil was to frustrate myself!

I am no longer frustrated, I now understand what we as a developer community are up against.

PEOPLE ENJOY HARD WORK BECAUSE IT IS FRUSTRATING.

I might even twitter that one, we may have evn found out the reason for the crash of the world economy, everybody had met their life goal and were frustrated to no end so they simply gave up in bliss......

LOVE

If you do what you love and make money with it ...

If you love what you do and you work "more" ...

You won't be frustrated

but

You will experience BLISS.

 

@shaunwhite:

Yes, Odesk seems to attract plenty of crooks and many very low-ball small time entrepreneurs & providers.

You have the choice to NOT catch the small fishes and to just wait patiently for a bigger one.

 

Cheers,

Rick

It seems you missed my point

Shaun it seems that you missed my point

There is similar idea in popular speech 'Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of ... our collective failure to make hard choices and prepare' http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/inaugural-address/

Also there are adages like 'no pain no gain' and 'pain makes glory'

In the dictionary that I have the word that you wrote 'toil' has similar meaning, this is what I wished to write

so my proposal for you is to try to outline price/quality groups on oDesk and to see how to increase and encourage the groups that focus on quality/better value/fair and better rates

Huh??

k123 wrote:

 Please note that hard work is supposed to be frustrating

What kind of statement is this?

Hard work should be rewarding, if it is not then find another field of work man.

there shall be cut on low bidding

I absolutely agree with Shaun on low costing issue, what happens is freelancers are working worldwide & connected to the international market  via websites like oDesk,  now me being for india if getting paid on windows troubleshooting/technical support @ $5 an hour i am happy as it is INR 230 an hour in my curency , however if same job is being done by IT Prof. from other countires like US/UK etc.. they are only making 5 $ an hour .. may be someday oDesk can introduce standard cost estimation for projects where providers will not have opportunity to bid for less & at the same time buyers can choose to have best of the talent instead of buying rotten apple for less as cost would be predefined & fixed.

 

toil

margaretphillips wrote:
What kind of statement is this?

see my comment above 

tags/REL_20091118 built on 2009/11/19 01:27