Group shouldnt be made a Hard Requirement for JOB APPLICATION

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Submitted Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 11:19pm GMT
remotesyssupport 6 posts - India - Joined Jul 03 2008

I would like to register a strong reservation on a feature that has been taken up for development namely Allow for hard job requirements in groups

In particular this feature would set the GROUP as hard requirement and automatically disqualify others from even applying for the job. This in my opinion is a bias.

I have also opened up a forum topic Groups SHOULDNOT be set as a Hard Requirement for voting, people who think that my point of view is right, please vote for it with your comments

Following are my arguments in this regard

I have over 15 years of experience as a system administrator and have topped the odesk test for Redhat Admin. I have only good feedback of all the jobs I have done so far.

If the group is made as the hard requirement for job applications, then for jobs under System Administration (RedHat Linux and associated distributions), one needs to be a group member of

Quote:

Red Hat Certified
This group is exclusively for Red Hat Certified Professionals Red Hat certifications are among the most respected credentials in IT. Certifications are earned when a user demonstrates, by way of a performance-based exam,..

I dont see why I should have a RHEL certification to even prove that I am good (when my past performance shows I am good for my work + the odesk RedHat Admin Test) . Or is it that Odesk is now forcing every system admin to have the certificate.

Interesting to note here, I dont want to point to the URL of certain providers who are members there (RHEL certified) ... they have scored very low on the ODESK RedHat Admin test 2.9/5.0 and also many have not even bothered to take the test. So what can be infered from this? Does Group which doesnt have a proper filtering process make for a niche market for buyer? This exact argument of groups being niche market was given for the creation of such a feature. Also arent the odesk test a marker for this or are they of NO USE at all. Dont they possess any validity and point to a providers ability. There are RHEL Admin and general tests in odesk test. If someone is among the top 3% or even a topper in it, doesnt he/she get a opportunity to even apply for the job?

Sorry to say this.. but if the above feature is applied.. I will loose the option of even applying to those jobs. The above feature makes me feel as if all those years of experience are a waste and the RHEL certificate is the only best thing that is there to judge a providers capability.

In my opinion "ALL PROVIDERS MUST HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS FOR JOB APPLICATION". The buyer will anyway decide if they want a provider or not. If buyer wants a RHEL certified professional.. they will go for one no matter what.. but if they are presented with another provider who can better even RHEL certified professional.. why shouldnt they?

A note.. this is not against any RHEL certified professionals.. you are all good people and professionals. This is just against the feature ... which I see as a totally wrong thing.

I hope the odesk team/management will comment on this forum and give their views.

Vote Result

Score: 5.5, Votes: 4

i'm in the middle Submitted Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:54am GMT
carlangelo 6 posts - Philippines - Joined Mar 10 2009

I actually like the GROUPS to have a requirement to filter out the marketplace. why?

oDesk Groups are dedicated marketplaces where buyers hire pre-screened providers.

Find pre-qualified providers who meet each group's exclusive admission criteria

The group isn't a free marketplace for all, if you can understand the tagline. It is filtered out to pre-screened providers. So if they don't have high requirements then why bother?

But I'm not actually against what you're saying. Maybe some others have super high requirements just like Red Hat. I think one of the reason others are not applying for a red hat certs is because it is paid with hundreds of dollars and others are thousand. I don't really blame them not taking those certs but it doesn't mean you should not follow the rules.

Well I understand the GROUP Submitted Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 1:01pm GMT
remotesyssupport 6 posts - India - Joined Jul 03 2008

Well I understand the GROUP and its tagline, I for that matter dont want to be a part of the Group (why should I pay $, spend valuable time and then get the certificate) to be part of a group.

My question is just plain and clear.. Why should it be set as a Hard Requirement? Isnt that a bias.

Also my argument of RHEL certificate compared to Odesk RedHat Admin Test.Some of the providers who are so called RHEL certified have scored MISERABLY in an equivalent test that Odesk conducts (namely RedHat Admin Test). So is odesk now saying that the test results are wrong. I will be the last person to buy such a argument like the people who have RHEL certification might have taken the odesk test lightly or casually... that would be ridiculous.

Now to the argument as you put

Quote:

oDesk Groups are dedicated marketplaces where buyers hire pre-screened providers.

What is this pre-screening??? Does this mean ODESK through groups now will give a provider who gets as low as 2.9/5.0 or 11% percentile in Odesk Redhat test (a equivalent test to RHEL.. or atleast has the same syllabus and content) a full chance to apply for a job and I here with a score to 4.9/5.0 dont get even a chance to look at the post (just because I dont want to take the certificate). To me it looks to be a complete BIAS.

I really did like to know the views of ODESK on this particular matter. Just waiting for a comment from them.. dont know when they will comment or whether they will ever do that?

Let me be crystal clear here
I am not at all talking about what the rules or requirements set to be part of a GROUP. They can fix it as they want and as they will. I am just pressing on the fact that a Job Candidacy should not consider GROUP as a hard requirement. As mentioned in the feature that will be developed

Quote:

Allow jobs posted to any Group to be a hard requirement for Group members. If the Groups are used as hard filters, they can become meaningful niche marketplaces where quality can thrive. Today, the jobs posted to Groups are still open to application from anyone.

. My question is why should it be set as a HARD criteria.
EVERY PROVIDER MUST HAVE A EQUAL RIGHT FOR JOB APPLICATION.
As far as niche market... WHAT DOES NICHE MARKET MEAN IN THIS CONTEXT? Well, to me, it just means that a few providers who are part of the group, form a NICHE Market and want to corner jobs for themselves.

EXCUSE ME and PARDON ME IF I SOUND RUDE.. but this is what comes in my mind..

They might want to corner those jobs, because they know perfectly well that some other person without the certification could even better them and can take the job. So instead of getting involved with a TOUGHER and LARGER competition, they just want to reduce it and corner those jobs under the pretext of certification/groups.
Providers with odesk test scores as miserable as 2.9/5.0 or in some cases 11% percentile... the bottom 10% on that test .... form a NICHE Market. This sounds so Ironical and Ridiculous

A note here is important Submitted Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 1:16pm GMT
remotesyssupport 6 posts - India - Joined Jul 03 2008

A note should be made here, I am a part of a GROUP called RightScale and this has 4 providers only. Now if the above requirement is set only 4 providers get the exclusive chance to apply for this so called NICHE market. This to me is ridiculous.

Although as part of this group, I stand to gain a LOT ... I am still very STRONGLY against the above feature set in development. Because I know for sure that there are providers out there who may be better than me in providing a similar service. And they shouldnt lose a chance to apply for a job on a pretext like a GROUP.

WHY SHOULD THEY EVEN LOSE THE CHANCE OF APPLYING?

Groups are actually managed Submitted Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:35pm GMT
danalyn

152 posts

Groups are actually managed by representatives of their respective companies. This means that someone from RedHat approves all members of the group. Requirements are set by these companies directly, which is why they require all certifications done for RHEL verified by their own company. Same goes for other Groups such as Sun and Zend.

I understand your concerns about things not seeming fair, but for providers (and other individuals outside of oDesk) who DO take the time and spend the money to get certified by companies like RedHat, Cisco, Microsoft, etc, they do it so they can have the advantage over their competitors because they are acknowledged by these companies directly.

It's the same principle as college degree holders vs. non-college degree holders. It may not seem fair that companies hire degree holders over non-degree holders, even though the skillset of the non-degree holder far outshines the degree holder, but it's the advantage the degree holder paid $50K for when they persued college.

—

Danalyn West, oDesk Marketing
Follow oDesk on Twitter and Facebook

The arguments given dont sound that convincing at all Submitted Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 2:48am GMT
remotesyssupport 6 posts - India - Joined Jul 03 2008

Well I do perfectly understand all of your argument including the one with example of degree vs no-degree. Also let me re-iterate, I am not questioning the rules of how group members are selected. I am NOT even bothered about that. I am only talking here about the HARD REQUIREMENT FOR JOB APPLICATION that odesk has set into development.

Pardon me if I state that the companies from your example in our context here are the BUYERS arent they and not ODESK.

So my question is plain and simple "Why is ODESK making me force to have a Certificate? "

Your argument of candidate having degree vs non-degree is not so valid in my opinion. Let the BUYERS (in your example COMPANY) DECIDE FOR themself. ODesk should keep all of the jobs open, it shouldnot put hard requirements like this via a feature.

Also noteworthy is that if you talk of degree/certificates, isn't Odesk Redhat Admin Test valid?

So now to your example,
Say there are 2 applicants, one has RHEL certificate and other has Odesk Redhat Admin Test (this test I know is also conducted by a valid certification authority that odesk has teamed up with). It is like 2 applicants with a degree from different universities, then where does the argument of degree vs non-degree arise. Does Odesk now say that the odesk redhat admin test is just for showcase (in your example... applicant degree is from a blacklisted/greylisted university and hence is not VALID") and the only real certification is from RHEL and none other? Well implementation of the HARD REQUIREMENT FOR JOB VIA GROUPS exactly DOES THAT.

In a nutshell

Quote:

Let buyers themselves decide if they want a provider with a certificate or without one, after seeing all the applicants for the job. Odesk may keep the filtering through the feature as a SOFT REQUIREMENT.. .like the one it already has.. when it states "You do not satisfy all the requirements of the buyer... but still you may apply"

DOESNT THIS SEEM FAIR TO YOU?

A note in passing,
I just checked http://www.odesk.com/groups/rhc

and down below (as note) it says

Quote:

"Red Hat is not affiliated with oDesk and does not endorse or sponsor the Red Hat Certified Group or any postings contained therein."

Well if HardRequirement is Set .. ODesk will (no doubts about that) endorse and also SPONSOR the Group as only valid set of people for any Redhat System Administration. In short ODesk will tell the buyers .. if you want Redhat Administrators these are the only people who are there.. others are not so good or are a waste of time.. so dont even bother about looking at their profiles. This is quite evident, since if odesk makes jobs submitted to a group a HARD REQUIREMENT, providers outside the group, will either never know of it or just cant apply, in short they cant even represent themselves to the potential buyers.

Funny though that the group contains some members who have miserable test scores on odesk redhat admin test (which in my opinion is also a valid testing platform). Talk about GROUPS BEEN NICHE MARKET?????????

Also a note must be made about spending time & money to get those certificate.
First, those certificates anyway add value to the providers credentials and a buyer is anyway going to take them seriously. So why does ODesk want to further that advantage by this Hard Requirement? In fact it is not only giving more advantages (there should not be any doubt... odesk will set a BIAS (unfair) if it gets this HARD requirement going), it is clearly closing the market. I always thought Odesk works as Open Market Principles not on (absurd) principles like Oligopoly. Groups as HardRequirement for JOB APPLICATION undoubtedly makes for Oligopoly.

Any Comments?

No comments still :( Submitted Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:53am GMT
remotesyssupport 6 posts - India - Joined Jul 03 2008

Waiting to hear a comment from odesk team. Hope they will have some time to ponder on what I am saying here and give me a CONVINCING argument.

equal right Submitted Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 7:41pm GMT
pcledera 51 posts - Philippines - Joined Feb 19 2009

""EVERY PROVIDER MUST HAVE A EQUAL RIGHT FOR JOB APPLICATION.
As far as niche market... WHAT DOES NICHE MARKET MEAN IN THIS CONTEXT? Well, to me, it just means that a few providers who are part of the group, form a NICHE Market and want to corner jobs for themselves.""

amen to this....

I agree Submitted Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 12:30am GMT
rpalekar 3 posts

I agree

No convincing reasons still.... Submitted Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 6:12pm GMT
remotesyssupport 6 posts - India - Joined Jul 03 2008

Unfortunately , I havent received a convincing reason from odesk in this regards.

Anyway the company and website belongs to odesk and we are just mere providers..........................................................................