Fixed Price projects and Unprofessional buyers
I would like to complain, scream, shout loud how i am bored from that.
It seems to me that most (80-90%) of the projects with buget starting from 100 USD are coming without clear technical task, clear description, etc. It's not possible evaluate approximate number of hours required to accomplish job.
Below is typical project description i'm talking about:
"Require someone to provide initial design of website and then develop the website...Further details will be provided once appointed."
So, what i'm supposed to do with such project? Write good cover letter, non-recycled, blah-blah-blah, in order to get a chance be interviewed? And at interview (if i'll get a chance) most probably i will be disappointed with amount of tasks (if they prepared) or amount of timewaste (if tasks not prepared and i am supposed to do free job of writing such technical tasks description).
Many, most (!) clients either don't have a clue how to handle IT projects (in for example, writing websites) OR are very lazy to do that.
Buyer comes here with 500 USD and wants to get something done. How much time will take that? 50 hours? 100 hours? 200 hours? Uh?
Moreover, buyer asking in advance how much time will it take to accomplish project without providing much info.
Buyer wants some undefined job done for predefined amount. That's not serious.
Can we do something with that?
PS: excuse my english, it's not perfect.
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Score: 10.0, Votes: 7
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margaretphillips 218 posts - United States - Joined Feb 18 2007
I have encountered that in every job I have had in the real world too.
gareth_esutera 51 posts - Philippines - Joined Nov 26 2008
In my experience, people who wrote these job descriptions are usually easier to convince that these and that features can/cannot be implemented. For those who are difficult to deal with, like those who ad lots of features after we already agreed on a low price, I just return their money so they cannot give me low feedback and they don't get my work. I don't usually consider these waste of time because I learned new WordPress stuff in the process.
alexsis 12 posts - Moldova - Joined Jul 30 2009
I am a designer and recently I had my first encounter with an unprofessional byer.
As a designer, I understand that it's my job to lead the byer to the final idea and deliver the result he wants and needs. I have some buyers who cant communicate constantly or provide unclear instructions, but this buyer on the contrary, had to many of them! This was one of the rare cases when I left a negative feedback message, and here what was in it:
Amateur, not professional, pays less and expects more. I hope WE NEVER get to work together again! She set a limit for hourly pay – 2 hours and messed with the assignment for 2 days!
First of all the assignment name was wrong, it was not a logo but a header. Here is all her modifications she asked me to do; after every message I sent her another sample of the graphic:
The ribbon and the text in (link) look much better.
The dimensions got messed up.
The couples are fine. Please change the black couple to a white couple.
The blue background is too simple, there have to be different shades of blue.
****************
the ribbon looks too blurry.
Please place the text "online dating sites" more to the right and up.
2 of the 3 couples (the right ones) and the same couple, please take a new couple, not with white clothes.
The blue background looks better, but I am sure you can make it even nicer with some photoshop effects.
All in all, it needs to be a really nice header. Look at it and make it look GREAT.
*****************
Regarding the couples, something doesn't look natural. I think you were right in the 1st place to have all of them wear white colors.
They somehow need to look as if they were all together, and not from separate photos.
Also, the middle part is a bit too empty, so let's add another couple.
*****************
Also , the font of the "online dating sites" is not great (link) is better. The site is all about online dating, so that has to be more emphasized.
One more thing - the digit "5" should look more similar in font style to the "Best" that comes before it.
*****************
the photo is great!
I still dont like the digit and the "online dating site" logo. Please send 3 samples like u did before.
*****************
the 3rd one has the best "5".
I still dont like the font.
(picture)
This is a nice font, for example:
also, we have a lot of space in the middle, so you can move all the text a little bit to the right.
*****************
please move the "5" a little bit to the left.
Make the "online dating sites" only capital letters, bolded.
*****************
almost done.
Move the "5" a bit more to the left, and make it a little bit smaller.
move the "online dating sites" a few pixels upwards.
Please check how it looks with the rest of the page, which you can find here – (link)
If the colors don't match, slightly change them.
*****************
Move the 5 a bit more to the left.
Please send me the header in a png format.
*****************
Looks great!
attached is the original png file. The new one has to have the same dimensions..
*****************
I am sorry i didnt give you the exact image size in the first place. Now it doesnt look so good
See attached screenshot.
*****************
attached is most of the site's code. This way you can more easily see how your changes look like - just replace the file img\elements\header.png with the new file you create.
*****************
See how it looks and make the changes that you think are necessary to make it look better.
I got to go now, let's continue tomorrow or another day.
Thanks!
*****************
There are a few modifications:
The png file's height is 129px. However, please only use the upper 117px. In the rest 12px put only background.
In addition, please change the width to 883px, and on the rightmost and leftmost pixel create a white line, like the white line in the original header in (link).
Thanks
*****************
Yes, thanks.
small changes: make the height 119px, and the width 885px.
Please make the white lines with width of 1px and not 2px.
All of this was supposed to take a maximum of 2 hours if she just gave clear instructions!
I cant stop thinking that I was too harsh with her. I guess the limit of 2 hours got me mad. I hate people who pay you 10$ say that they want a professional and set a limit of 2 hours, when I have 7$ per hour - why not just post the budget and act clear that you want something done cheap!
okudamanova
let's face it, the Buyers who with $100 - 500 budget are most likely to in fact be unprofessional (meaning that they are not IT or design specialists) and in most cases they do not in fact have a professionally formulated idea of what it is they need. If you think of it, that is only natural.
My suggestion as a former Graphic project manager, not as an oDesk support
, is to create a questionnaire for the types of projects that you apply to the most. For graphic design guys, this could be, for example a questionnaire for logo design, with the following questions (these are very basic examples, you have to think of your own, of course):
1. Please describe the logo you need designed
2. What style should the logo be done in (classic, cartoon, 3D, punk etc)
3. What colors should be included in the logo?
4. What is the name and the tagline for the logo?
5. Where are you going to be using the logo (business cards, website, promo materials, TV ads, posters) - this will help you determine the size
6. Give examples of logos that you think are in line of what you are looking for.
7. Give examples of logos that you do not like at all.
Again, this is a very basic example of the list of questions and you are the professionals to tweak them to your types of projects. Some more ideas are available in this post. But I believe having these ready and sending them to the Buyers as part of the cover letter will help you get more info from the Buyer, tweak your bid, as well as determine possibly difficult areas.
Regards,
Olga
PeterSafwat 8 posts - Egypt - Joined Aug 06 2008
what you said is true but you this is not the solution for what alexsis wrote.i am sure if alexsis asked that client the questions you mentioned above the buyer will still ask him/her to do stupid changes .this happened to me also .and the main problem that after all of this the buyer will leave a bad feedback for the provider .i am wondering if the buyer gave me a bad feedback after doing all this can oDesk solve this problem for me by removing the feedback or any other solution?
alexsis 12 posts - Moldova - Joined Jul 30 2009
Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate it! I don't always follow this pattern, but I do use it as it's a standard for all designers. The thing is, and you as a former graphic project manager will surely agree with me, that sometimes even after a long conversation, the buyer is still hard to figure out! I had a buyer that seemed well with English, but couldn't explain what he wanted! Or another one that kept saying "we want it to look more 3D" - I already made it fully real (shadow, light, texture) I even wanted to make it in 3D Studio Max to laugh when he will again say "Make it more 3D". Sometimes you ask questions but the byer still won't "open up" - it happens.
axeo 7 posts
if the weekly limit is 2, and you reached it; deliver your work, stop work, request limit be raised; period, end-of-story
we often set the weekly limit to the task estimate; accept the task, then raise the limit for the next task;
virtually any project can be broken down into tasks, sometimes just a few hrs per task or even less
also, we often ask that the dev work with us real time; our project mngr and oDesk dev together, side-by-side, hr-by-hr; skype, oDesk, screen sharing, etc.
also, we demand -- no ghost writing
agile/velocity/scrum !!!
hmiraso 12 posts
first of all, i'm a cat lover and I adore the very cute feline in your profile.
I totally agree with you, buyers like that are very annoying indeed. I've had similar experience too about a couple of times and what I did was tell the buyer what I feel straight off e.g. he/she being unreasonably meticulous, hard to communicate with, and yeah - sets a ridiculous weekly limit (1-2 hrs) etc. Then I told them that I feel it's not gonna work out and end the assignment.
I'm glad you gave her that honest feedback comment. I'm sure her future applicants will see how she treats freelancers and think twice before applying for her job posting.
alexsis 12 posts - Moldova - Joined Jul 30 2009
Thank you, my feline always helps me in my work - by constantly stepping on the keyboard and sitting in front of the screen
I don't know about telling the byer about the difficulties you experience, after all if you feel that the byer is unprofessional then chances are he wont understand it the right way.
A real professional provider should have the skill to turn the working process in his favor by guiding the byer and be able to tell "spit it out already!", so that the byer would not be offended. Sadly, I'm not as perfect as I should be, I sometimes feel like just shouting "Can't you write down all of the changes, instead of making me remake and send you the project 10 times over?!". But I think something of this sorts, calm down and continue my work.
I'm not a highly skilled professional and I make 300$ a month, so I can't choose my byers yet. At least I can't stop the project every time I feel like the changes pileup up too much.
gareth_esutera 51 posts - Philippines - Joined Nov 26 2008
In cases like this, I think the safest is to set limit on how many revisions you're willing to do. That way, the client will be forced to list down what he or she really wants.
It's really annoying when a client turns you into a human tool. What I mean is they will take a look at your work, ask some changes, take a look again, ask another changes, etc effectively using you to experiment on different design possibilities rather than thinking in advance what they really want.
msayno 113 posts - Philippines - Joined Feb 05 2008
when it comes to getting invited for an interview or applying for a job, i always trust my gut instincts ( which have never let me down so far ). if something feels wrong, might as well reject the job.
what i don't understand is if this is intentional or purely out of ignorance. i guess there are buyers who just don't know what they really want no matter how you ask them for clarifications the nth time.. then, there are those who had a change of mind in the middle of a venture.. but worst are those cunning opportunists who knew that providers will do anything for a nice feedback, so they give surprise tasks, out of the project's original scope, which should have been paid more than what was initially discussed.
communication and trust are major factors for me.. even with the irresistible lure of higher paying projects. if there is an issue with trust even during the interview stage, i guess, it's not worth to proceed with the task. save yourself time, effort, and energy. last thing you want is to be blackmailed for a feedback on a job rate you don't truly deserve
alexsis 12 posts - Moldova - Joined Jul 30 2009
The funny thing is that in my humble experience, I have received the perfect feedback and communication from people who pay more.
(who doesn't like praises?!)
For example, a woman requested a logo for 10$- the one I wrote about previously. The project turned out as a drag and was an unpleasant experience for me. I sticked with it for 2 reasons - First of all, I hate letting people down - If I went with the job, I'm going to finish it successfully - that's something I state in my cover letter and I mean what I say! And second, I was already hired, without an interview. You know, when people hire you without even saying "Hello" and then you get no reply from them for 2 hours; so you decide to take the first step and the conversation starts. So I was afraid to get a bad feedback score - I tend to keep my reputation crystal clear!
In the end that woman gave me a 4.6. The only thing why I wasn't frustrated about it is because I left her a 1.3 and a long bad feedback! >:)
Another of my clients also wanted a logo but for 20$ - fast work, my pleasure, and a feedback score of 5.0 with a long message of praises to me and my talent
I thought that when people pay more they request more but the funny thing is that on the contrary, people who pay more are the easiest to work with! - funny thing life.
okudamanova
Could it be that they appreciate your work more from the very beginning (that's why they are ready to pay more)? And this, in its turn, speaks about their "common sense"?
We can definitely educate the Buyer more about oDesk. But I am afraid it will be not possible to teach them about the projects they need done (at least because there are so many different needs). And I think that clients "who don't know what they want" are just a fact of life that you have to deal with - not only here on oDesk. If that is a fixed project, you could agree ahead of time how many revisions are included in the original bid (and what is considered a revision and what is a total re-do
).
wallyd 14 posts - Spain - Joined Dec 29 2008
the problem isent the buyers..its the providers who apply to the job offerings for the work. This problem would easily be solved if everbody just uses common sense and do not apply for unrealistic work... If u see a post and its says "MAKE WEBSITE" and the budget is 20 USD...if people apply to that, the buyer gets the wrong impression and thinks...hey this actually works ! ..just dont apply to those jobs... no matter how many times i say this..it doesent help i believe...
igormikhaylov 37 posts - Russia - Joined Mar 20 2007
I totally agree with you - the problem is NOT the buyers, the problem is providers who apply to idiotic job postings like "MAKE WEBSITE for $20" or similar SPAM. Another problem is that there is a lot of such job postings here in oDesk. I work as oDesk provider for a long time, and I can say I NEVER apply to job postings with unfairly low budgets or with unclear requirements! If you apply to such job posting then you should be ready to work for free. Next thing is that most of fixed-price jobs is dedicated for people who wanna get their first job here on oDesk and wanna work for good feedback only. So if you already have a good feedback you should think twice before applying to fixed-price job opening. Always keep in mind that you can get this work, but it won't be successfully completed and you will have a bad mood and bad feedback as a result!
And finally, all providers should keep in mind following: respect yourself, don't turn into slave! Tell to your buyer: my work is hard and should be paid well. The buyers who don't understand this should try to do their tasks on their own. And you always can leave a fair feedback for buyer. It was a few times when I rejected interview invitations or ignored job postings from buyers who had negative feedbacks. Thanks to those providers who leave a fair feedbacks for buyers.
gareth_esutera 51 posts - Philippines - Joined Nov 26 2008
I would sometimes apply to low paying jobs, usually when I intend to fill up my account to a certain amount before withdrawing, but I'll make it clear what I'm willing to do for that amount.
Just last Saturday, I bid on a job for $40. The buyer said that he needs a WordPress template and that's it. He didn't mention any fancy feature. He didn't provide any sample site.
In a usual open letter, I will try to impress buyers with my qualifications and provide sample sites, but for this buyer, I only provided him with two sample sites and told him that I'm willing to do something like those for $40.
The buyer immediately hired me and sent 50% upfront payment. He didn't even interviewed me or provided additional details. After that, he didn't contact me so I contact him first.
5 or 6 days had passed and he contacted me just today. As it turns out, what he wants is really a shopping cart site.
What a waste of time, why can't people just provide clear instructions?